I mean, I've often thought about this and ended up chasing Mytel. What's the value proposition? Can you just give us a brief potted history of your journey here? I often think that where we are in ESG is really the reunion of the work of the investment analysis and capital markets with that of the real economy. I find mfs like you really interesting guy. Very few companies want to issue equity, but they do want to issue bonds. There was something that Pilar talked about which I really appreciated, which was this idea of the whole being more than the sum of its parts. I want to ask you, very early in my career, I was pointed to Michael Mauboussin's book, or at least chapter, on Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers, which actually came from the Santa Fe Institute.
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So there's one that we've spoke about a little bit more, which is in terms of really paying attention to the composition of the workforce, and the investment in the workforce, and the opportunities for growth and development, you know within the company itself. I think that, again, you have to try not to miss the forest for the trees. And in many cases, it's been really helpful. And doing our own homework means, just like we go and dig into the details of these issuers and adjust for the different variables that apply, you do the same thing with sustainability. We Found Zack Fox's Top Secret Lemon Pepper Wing Spot, Should We Blow Up The Spot. Vish Hindocha: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the All Angles podcast, where we look to unpack the wonderful world of ESG investing one conversation at a time. We had another example on the mining sector, again, where we've been engaging very significantly with a company that has had a checkered past, but where we do recognize their commitment to change. You will have some that are more short term in nature within that long-term active approach. Something like 12, 000 individual raw materials they handle, so the degree of complexity that they're handling on behalf of their customers is very, very high and something that not everyone can replicate. We really love the science-based targets. So whether it's models from ecology where you might typically find systems thinking, or psychology, or even engineering.
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Again, in that more leadership capacity, is there anything there that you can share in terms of how it works for the specialist teams? Given the complexity, given the nuance, given the fact that the subject is likely to prey on some of our worst kind of unconscious biases or behavioral traps, the power of the team and the power of the collective can really help us get to a much better outcome than any one very, very smart individual can. David Falco: Thank you, Ross. I think maybe on embracing complexity and thinking about systems thinking more bottom-up, I do wonder if we could go deeper on some of the sectors and to really kind of unpack some of that complexity. This is a really fascinating topic and a theme that lots of people in the industry are talking about now, and I'm sure we'll hear more about in the years to come. I find mfs like you really interesting images. So yeah, these things kind of build slowly over time and they're very insidious. Nicole, before I ask you some more questions, a little bit more about you, like are there themes in this whole space that you're watching very intently, that you are looking to kind of play out or you know, excited to see how they may play out over time? In this conversation, after we learn a little bit more about Pilar and her background, we dive deep into how she thinks about sustainability in the context of global fixed income markets and investing. And yeah, that's the work that we do at MFS day in day out to really prevent against exactly what you're talking about, kind of the story here that great manager that's super compelling with incredible charisma that you don't really understand, that's the kind of stuff where having so many different voices, having such a diverse population across all the geographies, that we really spend a lot of time wrestling with to get away from the mania, if you will.
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So with that in mind today, I have Dave Falco, one of the investment analysts based out of London. The first sort of theme that comes to mind for me thinking about it now is the idea of 'embracing complexity', which was sort of spearheaded by Barnaby in our first conversation: Barnaby Wiener: Embrace complexity. You mentioned reading. And that ultimately, you as a lender or an investor will be rewarded for that. The next step for us, just given even how MFS are built on this global research platform that is designed into different sector teams to develop deep nuance, context specific experience and expertise on those companies. I think from a climate perspective, the E perspective, you know, climate is the biggest risk, and also this incredible opportunity for all businesses. The world is changing. I find mfs like you really interesting post. And how are people treated within the company? It's a pleasure being here. By good feedback, I mean some really positive and some kind of critical of, "Did we go far enough, did we go deep enough on some of the issues? We own companies that would tend to be excluded in mandates that would be exclusionary. Ross Cartwright: The world is always changing and maybe we'll be wrong and maybe we have higher inflation for much longer. There could be new tariffs that come in place, you could have higher energy costs within that region that you are manufacturing, higher wage inflation or the ability just to source the raw materials that you need to produce the goods and services that you're providing.
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And as part of hearing those outside experts maybe along the value chain and for our audience to hear from their peers on how they're overcoming some of their challenges. I mean, these are really big open-ended topics, and if you're only going to come at it from a systems view, you end up basically amalgamating the views of lots of other researchers and coming up with some sort of consensus view. They get good support in terms of training and how to install the products as quickly and as efficiently as possible, and a quick response if things ever do go wrong. And, you know, one of the things that at MFS we asked our companies to disclose around some of the metrics we can get such as turnovers, such as your gender identification.
So I think that you're absolutely right, there aren't hard numbers. For next season, in the absence of feedback from our listeners -- So again, please email us if you would like to hear something different -- but maybe getting some more outside experts and people from outside of MFS talking about the different approaches that they're taking, going deeper on some of the sector-based pathways on the complexity therein of applying this in real time. Rather than maybe the stability that sometimes, I think, as humans we all crave. And then it's really helpful that we get in that together and truly understand those different targets. Ross Cartwright: Again, David, really interesting stuff. What that really requires then is for you to have collective expertise - for you to have a team of people that can challenge your thinking.
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